Hello from Los Angeles! I’ve just wrapped up an amazing trip to Japan, and flew Japan Airlines’ Boeing 787-9 business class on the short 9hr20min flight from Osaka to Los Angeles. I booked this for just 60,000 American AAdvantage miles, which is quite a deal.
When I’ve flown Japan Airlines’ Boeing 787 business class in the past, I enjoyed the carrier’s Apex Suites business class. I rank this one of the world’s best business class seats, and the overall experience as one of the best business class products in the world.
Well, this flight was a bit different. You see, some long haul Japan Airlines Boeing 787s and Boeing 777s don’t have Apex Suites, but rather have reverse herringbone seats. Unfortunately these left with a different impression.
In this post I wanted to share my initial thoughts on the experience, and then soon you can expect a detailed trip report on the flight.
In this post:
Japan Airlines’ uncomfortable reverse herringbone seat
My flight was operated by a 787-9 with Japan Airlines’ Sky Suite III business class seats, as they’re called. I’ve seen a lot of people online complaining about these specific seats, noting how uncomfortable they are. I figured they were exaggerating, or something, since I’m usually a fan of reverse herringbone seats.
Well, now I know what everyone is talking about. These have to be the least comfortable reverse herringbone seats in service nowadays.
When you look at the seat, it probably looks like a pretty average reverse herringbone product, and you wouldn’t assume it’s particularly uncomfortable.
However, when you recline, I can promise you that it feels really, really narrow and tight. Reverse herringbone seats have evolved quite a bit over the years, to provide more space when in the reclined position (just look at Starlux Airlines’ new A350 business class). When in bed mode, this seat felt super narrow.
As a side sleeper, I simply couldn’t get comfortable in this seat, as my knees were constantly hitting the side of the seat. While Japan Airlines offers an excellent mattress pad, what didn’t help with getting comfortable was the pillow that was about as thick as a pancake.
Maybe I just had bad luck, but I woke up in pain after sleeping. My back hurt, my arm hurt, and my hands hurt, in a way I haven’t had in quite some time. I’m just grateful that the cabin was kept pretty cool, which often isn’t the case on Japan Airlines, and that can become a problem given the lack of individual air nozzles.
The puzzling thing is that these seats are still fairly new to Japan Airlines. Why did the airline select this product, over the other superior reverse herringbone seats out there? It’s strange…
Japan Airlines’ good Wi-Fi, bad entertainment
When it comes to entertainment on Japan Airlines’ Boeing 787s, there’s good news and bad news. The good news is that the airline offers Panasonic Wi-Fi, and you can buy a pass for the entire flight for $18.80. That’s tough to beat, especially given the lack of data caps.
I’m happy that the Wi-Fi is a good option, because Japan Airlines’ entertainment selection is very bad, at least for those of us looking for entertainment in English. There’s not even a solid selection of Hollywood sitcoms, as you find on a vast majority of airlines.
Japan Airlines’ food & service are very good
While the hard product and entertainment left a bit to be desired, Japan Airlines’ soft product was great. As you’d expect from a Japanese airline, service was courteous and friendly. It’s always tough to go back to a domestic US flight after flying with a Japanese airline, given the very different service culture.
While Japan Airlines’ western meals are only okay, the airline does a great job with Japanese meals. On this flight I decided to have the Japanese meals for both the dinner and breakfast, and they didn’t disappoint. For the main service, the meal began with drinks, as well as mixed nuts and olives. I had a glass of champagne (Duval-Leroy) and the peach and grape SKY TIME drink (one of my favorite non-alcoholic airplane drinks).
The appetizer consisted of a handful of dishes, including scallops, tofu, lobster, mackerel, and pike conger, beef, and chicken.
The main course consisted of chicken and eel, rice, and a miso soup.
Then for dessert there was an apple mango cake and green tea.
For the pre-landing meal, I had halibut with a Japanese omelet, rice, and miso soup.
Suffice it to say that this was a bit more intricate than your typical domestic first class meal in the United States, and frankly, a much better choice than the western options.
Bottom line
While I’m a big fan of Japan Airlines’ Apex Suites business class, the carrier’s reverse herringbone product (known as Sky Suite III), isn’t nearly as comfortable. This has to be one of the tightest reverse herringbone seats out there, especially in bed mode. When you add in the very thin pillow, it didn’t make for great rest.
Fortunately most other aspects of the experience were great, including the service, food, and drinks.
Personally I’d probably avoid this product on a long haul flight in the future, unless it’s the most direct option available. For example, Japan Airlines is the only airline to fly between Osaka and Los Angeles, so there’s something to be said for the convenience of that over connecting, assuming you’re traveling between the two cities.
If you’ve flown Japan Airlines’ reverse herringbone business class, what was your experience like?
I fly this in July. Now, a bit less looking forward to it. I'll pray they have an extra pillow. If given a choice, would you pick front row, mid-cabin, or the back...if it makes any difference?
Just flew to Tokyo with JAL, funny enough the ramen was very average while the salmon penne was great, I went for 2nds
Hello, how can you know if you are in the sky suite vs sky suite III? Our reservation on the 787 currently just says sky suite
same question here. I didnt realize this was an issue and now it seems important
You can call JAL US customer service or look it up on their website as if you are booking a ticket. It requires a little bit of clicking around, but the seat type info is available. I'm going to have the inferior seats on my KIX LAX flight in July, darn. Good luck to you!
I've flown JAL first class R/T LAX - HND (Haneda) and HND - LAX and let me tell you, everything was excellent, from the very minute we board the plane, we were escorted to our "Suite" as they refer to first class seats. Welcome aboard drink was served, we opted out for the Japanese course plus I was very pleased when requested caviar as well.
JAL food and service are among the best in the world.
Thanks for sharing these details. I only once had the pleasure to travel in the Apex Suite and have since then been looking forward to repeat it.
Do they at least still prepare fresh rice on board? That was together with the selection of Japanese whiskey the other thing that made it my favorite flight ever.
First world problems..lol
Good God..go fly United
I find your comment about the entertainment quite inaccurate. I flew on JAL 787-8 (NRT-SFO) and their 767 (NRT-HAN) at the end of September, round trip. The entertainment was more than enough with latest movies and classics, and they offered these movies in multiple languages/subtitles.
JAL, if you are reading this, please I beg you get some new pillows for your planes. Lucky is right, they’re like pancakes. I’ve had pillows in economy that are better than this. Everything is so good on Jal except for your sad sad bedding. Also ditch that stupid terry cloth pillow case, it scratches my face.
Thanks for this review Ben. I took 2 flights on JAL a few years ago. One with these reverse herringbone seats and the next with Apex Suites. Loved the Apex suites as I got a true window seat for my ~13 hour flight. Hated the reverse herringbone seats and wondered at that time why you love reverse herringbone seats. Now I know that it's the seats on JAL not reverse herringbone in general.
I enjoy watching the Japanese movies they offer. There are always a couple that are quite good, and that I'd never have seen or known about otherwise.
I have taken these 4 times in total (South-East Asia to Tokyo) and the seats work better for day flights. I'm a side sleeper and not as tall as Ben, so it wasn't so cramped for me. However, the sleeping surface feels pretty rough and no sleep pad is provided for these mid-range flights.
The middle seats have a weird configuration, where in full-recline mode, your seat-mate's feet are directly above or below you...
I have taken these 4 times in total (South-East Asia to Tokyo) and the seats work better for day flights. I'm a side sleeper and not as tall as Ben, so it wasn't so cramped for me. However, the sleeping surface feels pretty rough and no sleep pad is provided for these mid-range flights.
The middle seats have a weird configuration, where in full-recline mode, your seat-mate's feet are directly above or below you and you might end up very close to the floor-level.
On the other hand, ANA's 787 (non-herringbone) also doesn't score much better for me in terms of sleep comfort.
Moral of the story - Try to fly a day-flight!
I usually travel JFK-TYO on JAL’s cubicle-like Sky Suite, which like very much, but I traveled on this JAL Suite III product from LAX to KIX a couple of months ago when Osaka was named as my destination. I had the exact same issues described here!
The seat got so narrow toward my feet that, essentially, my feet and/or legs were uncomfortably constrained in some way while fully reclined, no matter how I twisted...
I usually travel JFK-TYO on JAL’s cubicle-like Sky Suite, which like very much, but I traveled on this JAL Suite III product from LAX to KIX a couple of months ago when Osaka was named as my destination. I had the exact same issues described here!
The seat got so narrow toward my feet that, essentially, my feet and/or legs were uncomfortably constrained in some way while fully reclined, no matter how I twisted my body. It was so bad that I almost wished instead for JAL’s old Shell Flat Neo from, what, 20 years ago (?), which in my opinion was merely a glorified premium economy seat.
Do you think the first row would be any better, or do you think all seats are the same? I'll fly this product later in the year. Thx!
Are you sure all the aches from your flight aren't just the start of old age? ;-)
Thank you for this post. We flew on their J class a few years back and suffered through their very warm cabin temps and their old, decrepit seats. We wanted to give their 787s a chance but now I guess we'll have to find another carrier for our trans-pacific travels...
Aww, shoot. I'm scheduled to do NRT -> SFO in the 787-9 with these seats in January. Thanks for the heads up.
@Ben
Another point, where you in a window or middle seat? The window seats have significantly more footwell space than the middle seats, and the bulkhead window seats a good deal more than the standard window seats.
This looks to be basically the same, if not the exact same configuration as their intra Asia 787 hard product. Yeah it's pretty awful, but still better than their old non lie flat product. The worst part to me is that uncomfortable shoulder seatbelt strap that just digs into your shoulder.
Awful seat for a reverse herringbone. Problems include:
- no leg rest
- poor storage (I disagree Apex is worse.)
- gap between seat and sidewall
- uncomfortably hard seat
- poor recline positions
- bizarrely, the presence of a shoulder belt even though the seat belt is equipped with an airbag. You typically only need one or the other to certify.
Yikes. I fly this in July. Do you think a first row seat would be mildly better? Thx!
I’ve heard many complaints about these seats but you’re the first person to actually offer some detail about why they’re uncomfortable so thank you Lucky.
I’m generally not too fussed about air nozzles but JAL is one airline where I do notice their absence because of their warm cabins. I don’t usually find it an issue on day flights but when I’m trying to sleep I do think it notably detracts from an otherwise very, very good airline.
Comparing to Brussell Air?
@Ben
There is basically no 777 left with the Skysuite III seats (reverse herringbone). There were all supposed to have been retired, but a few of them continued to fly domestic after the PW engine domestic 777 were grounded. They should have been retired now that all but one A350-900 are delivered and in operation. All of the ones operating domestic were retired, supposedly. But one has been popping up on HND NGO.
So...
@Ben
There is basically no 777 left with the Skysuite III seats (reverse herringbone). There were all supposed to have been retired, but a few of them continued to fly domestic after the PW engine domestic 777 were grounded. They should have been retired now that all but one A350-900 are delivered and in operation. All of the ones operating domestic were retired, supposedly. But one has been popping up on HND NGO.
So there is 1 left in the fleet, that is supposed to have been retired, but does pop up on short domestic flights.
Well, this is disappointing since we are flying same route next year. I was so happy to get the Osaka to LAX flight to avoid going back to Tokyo to catch a flight home, but now I am wondering if that was a mistake. Oh well, still better than economy!
We flew BLK-HND on a JL 777 last year and agree with you completely. It was crowded and lacked storage space.
At this point in our travels we've flown in quite a few flatbeds, both *A and OW products, and this one stands out as the least comfortable within recent memory.
BLK?
BNK ?
They prolly meant BKK.
1. While I like the Apex suite better, the Skysuite III is OK for shorter flights (I flew it NRT-SIN). It also has better storage than the window Apex suites which have very little.
2. While JAL’s western meals are usually better than say AA’s int’l J meals, JAL’s western meals are still not nearly as good as its Japanese meals.
3. I’ve flown 4 r/t’s on JAL (10 legs total) and had depleted the...
1. While I like the Apex suite better, the Skysuite III is OK for shorter flights (I flew it NRT-SIN). It also has better storage than the window Apex suites which have very little.
2. While JAL’s western meals are usually better than say AA’s int’l J meals, JAL’s western meals are still not nearly as good as its Japanese meals.
3. I’ve flown 4 r/t’s on JAL (10 legs total) and had depleted the entertainment choices after 3 legs. I started loading my iPad up multiple seasons of shows. And reading books. Gasp.
I prefer this seat to the Apex suite hands down. The Apex has virtually nowhere to put your stuff but this Skysuite III seat has good space and it easy to get in and out of. Don’t let one bad night’s sleep dictate your choice of bed or airplane seat.
The food looks amazing!
What is the easiest way to know which seat type you are likely to get? I just booked a trip to HKG and now I am nervous. Part id on the 767 so no issue. Other legs are on the 787-800 I believe. Thoughts?
The 787-8 isn’t equipped with these seats. Instead most of those flying TPAC and to Europe will be configured with the APEX Suite (SKY SUITE). There are also angle flat 787-8s (Shell Flat Neo), though they’re mostly scheduled on intra-Asia flights only.
I promise you the Japanese entertainment selection isn’t much better. As much as I love JAL, I will normally have run out of things I want to watch in Japanese and English on an Australia to Europe run. You often get a better selection of Japanese movies on Cathay and JAL seems to think one or two episodes of a show is enough. (Seriously there are nearly 6000 episodes of Shoten and they only ever put one on the system)
Lufthansa’s business class seat (your favorite, and mine) is certainly way better than this.
However , not KIX to LOS , no ? LH would route from HND to FRA to LAX , yes ?
I assume this is attempt of a joke.
I took the same seat for 13h HND-HEL flight (avoiding Russia) and I cannot agree with you more. Quite uncomfortable and at least JAL should provide more substantial pillow.
This seat is designed to provide high-density full-flat seat for medium-haul routes (Japan-SEAsia and Hawaii) and non-premium routes such as long-haul from KIX and NGO but seems to be deployed to more long-haul routes.
I suppose you received an Amenity kit. Why did you not mention it?
@ José Roberto -- This is just a preview about the things that stood out to me the most about the experience. I go into a lot more detail with the full trip reports, so you can expect details on the amenity kit there. :-)
"While Japan Airlines’ western meals are only okay"
Have to disagree there, their western meals are better than what you'll find on many western airlines.
JAL Sky Suite III use Zodiac Aires - a reverse herringbone seat that is configured much dense than other seats of the same configuration in the market such as Zodiac Cirrus (The one used by Cathay Pacific and AA 777-300) and B/E Aerospace Super Diamond(Seat on AA 777-200 & 787, Air Canada).
Zodiac Aires are noticebly more compact as they take space from other passengers like staggered seats - which might explain the narrowness of the seat.
@ KG3036_SS -- Yep, though ironically the airline still has such an inefficient configuration. The airline only has 26-28 business class seats between the first and second set of doors on the 777 and 787, while other airlines get up to 30 superior reverse herringbone seats in that space.
I thought the denser configuration was what they're looking for, just by looking at the difference of Sky Suite 1/3 on 787-9.
Also, JAL always put Sky Suite 1 on their most premium routes is very telling how they see these two products.
That's due to the placement of the lavatories at door 2. JAL places them on the side of the business cabin, making the space of the cabin smaller. Other airlines, like Qatar, place them on the side of the economy cabin, making the space for the business cabin larger.
Halibut for breakfast?
No thanks
Fish is a common Japanese breakfast item. Not surprising to see it as the Japanese (washoku) choice.
One thing I don't like about JAL is the inconsistency of seat types across the fleet. On the 787 alone, you have 3 types of seats which are the old angled recliner, APEX suites, and reverse herringbone which I don't understand.
We flew this exact same route a few weeks ago, and had the same thoughts. It’s too narrow and there’s no good armrest. Definitely going to try to avoid this product in the future.